Voiiiii <3Quote:
Originally Posted by urfriendvoi
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Voiiiii <3Quote:
Originally Posted by urfriendvoi
Strange, I expected an insta-ban for you - but GM's are slacking these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by urfriendvoi
Not sure my patience can still handle that. Getting older, less patience and all that jazz.Quote:
Originally Posted by PenguinJoe
Although, I was tempted to make an account on that forum of theirs just to poke and make fun but decided against it. Heard it was immature. :(
Is it, though?
Googled this board during an offhand conversation with a girl about my previous endeavors here. Well, damn, maybe I'll need to swing by.
Screw it.
HellHunter has re-entered the game.
So many old faces here it's insane.
If I do, I might need to fight back for my proper forum account, though. Apparently my inactivity during college and change of staffing in the meantime let it end up locked.
How's it going everybody?
you have no idea how happy i am the legend of the caddy boy lives on, other than solely in my own memoryQuote:
Originally Posted by sunnyangel
hello old(in both senses of the word) friend. i'm not hanging yet, how are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by PenguinJoe
my fellow oceanic friend : )Quote:
Originally Posted by xXxAurorAxXx
always here when i come back
i didn't. i mean they must've been through more forum staff than i have accounts by now, these people don't know me. i expected you to still be a lil bitch though haha just playingQuote:
Originally Posted by EaglePhoenix
hey budQuote:
Originally Posted by soulholder
i like the big red text
my char is GOLDENBOY add me friends
I noticed Tecstep (?) viewing the forums today. Thats a name we didnt see around here for ages! (Im sorry if I spelt that nic wrong)Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnyangel
ofc! Someone's gotta be here to keep the best music thread/ thread alive :DQuote:
Originally Posted by urfriendvoi
first THH now tech****? dayumQuote:
Originally Posted by xXxAurorAxXx
Next thing youj know they will tag you with that Community Cheerleader tag again. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by sunnyangel
Tried to. you weren't online.Quote:
Originally Posted by urfriendvoi
Look for Voodoo or Spanks (those are the toons I'm on most often.
Also found out they have HKs in this version :(
Bad move PlayWith!!!
Where did you find the hks?
saw chat ingame of someone buying it from an npc. was only good for 4 hrs - i think he paid about 50k for it.
SH!T, how did I miss this post? lol dam this game is bringing out everyone from the old days ;pQuote:
Originally Posted by soulholder
Hi THH!!!! <3
well well, some old faces here
Miss the old days of Rohan, all friends and enemies. Made for some fun times
~Defiant
Hey Karren! <3Quote:
Originally Posted by xXxAurorAxXx
Very much surprised to see you still floating around here haha.
The amount of people calling me out in-game is crazy - some of them I barely even talked to when I played and haven't seen in years! If there's one thing to have learned from this community, it's that it's extremely tightly-knit, and most of us have made lasting impressions as people on one-another. I can't be certain how long I'll be around, but the nostalgia and reconnecting has been great fun so far. Just like a family reunion, it seems so many are setting aside all the dysfunction for a brief while and are just enjoying the company and remembering the past in good spirits.
Though apparently I didn't leave enough of a reputation for all these young whippersnappers I keep seeing in-game who maxed out in R:BF that don't know of the OG danger-ranger :3
Though I'm kind of bummed that I'll need to be playing a scout...
Hey Karren! <3
It's basically just a big family reunion here ain't it! Just a brief period where everyone's setting aside the dysfunction and negative feelings towards each other to enjoy each others' company and reconnect after so long ;D
Has me worried; 50k for four hours is pretty cheap. The last thing we want back is those things making a return...Quote:
Originally Posted by PenguinJoe
Probably still would just have been best off relaunching the game as it released in '08.
lolno
Everybody SAYS that they would like the old school rohan feel but in reality its bull****. I have played on maybe 20 or so lvl 99 pservers and they die within weeks because simply put the struggle is just not fun. We have exposed the masses to a higher quality lifestyle with twins and the lvl 15 costume and chimera gear. IMO epic-upg 1.0 pre +18 rings was the BEST time in rohan history, the best pvps that lasted because people didnt die in 2 hits ala 2008 rohan and people didnt die in 4 hits ala +18 boss drop 50% scrolls bull****. I honestly would prefer rohan origin with either a scaled down upg weap style (maybe +30% hp on all dps weapons and +70% hp on tank weapons / +6% dd / +6% crit) or a working not p2w style of isen server. The main problem with the isen server was the stupid gear progression system that made it impossible unless you balled out to upgrade past chimera on anything except weapon. The system of farming power badges to get the spirit stones for your crafted gear was fair a f and if they added more ways to get power badges (example: buying from ip shop or making quests in indun) it would be much better since everyone just logged like 5 chars for PA to keep up with the spirit stones.
Nah. How did Twins possibly make the game better in the grand context of things? I could take a level 30 with agi twins and crit people in the nearby levels for five times their max health. Level curbing of abilities helped, but honestly, there shouldn't be a need to do so. It's symptoms of a bigger issue. And at the end of the day, the issue is P2W powercreep in a highly exclusive have or have-not environment. R:BF's pop died out with epics and upgrades not because of bad balance or time investment, but the sheer fact that it was pretty much impossible to climb out of being a have-not without major assistance from big-name guilds or P2W spenders.
2008 was the best this game ever was, and likely ever will be. People didn't die in two hits, either, unless they were just bad or massively underleveled/geared. A player in good gear in his 70's was an endgame or 8x/9x threat enough to take them damned seriously Combos dropped people 10-15 levels up if they weren't paying attention. Strictly speaking, the pace was fast, yes, but the combat itself required some mental acuity, and success was found in a mixture of gear + skill. AA resets and every little cooldown mattered. Good-enough gear wasn't IM-dependent or expensive to make. Costumes gave +5 stats and 30 pdef/mdef and were hardly mandatory because of it.
Most skills had barely any difference between 6/7 and there was little incentive to spend a ton monthly to stay competitive. Minigame (B5/L7/nopoly)stat scrolls didn't even exist - just wraths, sprint scrolls, and some other minor junk in the mix. In no other time has this ever been the case.
Twins were a good QoL buff to offset the intense needs for crafted accessories and the insanity of powercreep someone who spent a ton of money on the game could achieve. However, hard-stat-capped R1-R4 rings with a low level requirement were amazing because the gains level-to-level between a well-geared level 60 character and level 99 only differed in raw stats mostly from the actual point investments from builds. The rest was gear amp from %'s.
A lot of the rest of the problems just happened from over-farming and obvious best-choices for PvP as far as option items went (DD).
THH you never actually played this game so I can chalk your thoughts up to just being a casual. I have been around the endgame pvp scene since the start and I can tell you that balance during the 08 days was just an illusion. You are a victim to confirmation bias which is when you think its fair because you managed to get away with it when in reality at the top tier that never happens. Templars with feathers that had a decent defender on their back did not die to anyone not within 30% of them gear wise. Dekans with 4x hearts were 1 hitting anyone who didnt have at least 19k hp and good luck killing a 1 vit per lvl priest with 4x amulets it wasnt gonna happen.
Getting that full buff empower dark eyes ctb people had 25k+ melee fighting ppl with at most 8k. Night and day difference and lol plz lvl 7s were always important again thats confirmation bias. You got away with having lvl 6s and you think that you would be able to get away with it in real pvp? plz
The epic-upg pre +18 days was THE BEST MOST BALANCED time in rohan. Ask anybody who was around at that time and they will tell you.
Well - we've been there, said that, discussions all over the place yadayada.
Epics themselves weren't what initially broke the game, but the fact they were a limited sale along with a whole bunch of other shizzle that went down.
There's so many things that "broke" the game, that it's pointless to pinpoint it down to one thing when, TBF, it was never right to begin with.
But hey - let's not debating on what could be and what should be - but what is and what small tweaks can make the difference.
... a day in and we're back to this, lol. Things never change.
I think your dates are just way off. And I've been at or near the tops: in beta in the 60's/70's, and built a reputation as a skilled ranger despite being under-leveled thereafter. I also ran with NW fighting Forever and hit full glacial and the likes before calling it quits in 2012, and literally let other people take Bez/Rulers while I was in NW pre-walter's/twins. My friend/prior commander in Deceit who moved to NW with me ended up with what was supposed to be my set of the drops because I just stopped caring enough to keep putting in the effort; I'd done my share of "PvP" in the game, and things were starting to spiral even beyond hope of control with how much RNG and cost kept getting put in. I've never been at the true pinnacle since post-beta, because I never cared enough to spend that much cash to max out in order to make myself the best. You've seen what some people charge to leverage themselves into power. I'm not one to care that much about e-peen over budget. I'd rather win an intellectual argument.
The reason I think your dates are messed up is because R5, and subsequently feathers, didn't even exist in 2008. Nobody had T5 exotics/ancients then, either, because the last > level 100 items per weapon type weren't even in the game until then in order to do the forging. R5 and the surrounding gear was post-release content that came out in 2009, and the 100+ gear content patch didn't come out until a number of months later. The giant for CtB didn't even come out until winter 2009/2010. The absolute best thing one could get at the time was R4 rings, which are marginally better than Wings and the likes, which I had even before level 60 because there were guilds on Ahkma literally giving them away to random people, myself included, in order to fend off their opponent guilds.
A lot of people from '08 Ahkma will reference a few rangers who were particularly good at the game: Zukii, Rod before transferring to Syrephis, the GM from Element whose name escapes me, and myself. Frankly, I taught Rod and some of his high-ranks of his guild (Vic and Tae) how to play and beat ranger as dhans, because they were my guild officers before they moved off the server.
Epics/upgrades "balanced" PvP by devaluing stats and build choices and the variance between builds. Everyone ran the same gear stats in the competitive scene, and thus the game became mostly a proof-of-concept about whether or not the classes were numerically okay. And they were in the context of the meta; that's it. That doesn't mean anything for the general game-state. All they did was make WFFS/DFFS less-potent after the Hero patch due to differences in relative health. Most 2008-era players didn't stay here post-epics. I've seen the metrics; 70% player reduction in less than a week to never return. A majority of the rest either burnt out sooner from crafting or other reasons, or they lost interested with the blatant cash-grab. So anyone you ask is probably likely going to be inherently biased because statistically they weren't likely to have actually been here at release.
I didn't partake in the serious post-epic PvP because I just didn't care at that point to. The damage had been done. The forum PvP was more fun than it was in-game, especially given the number of users here.
You compare skills to how they were in '08 vs post-'09 reworks vs whatever reworks have happened since I last played, and 7's were hardly necessary in '08 for most skills. Some of the essentials, absolutely they were huge helps. But many skills didn't improve past level 6, or were barely improvements to a point where even at endgame it didn't actually matter. In fact, in '08, some skills actually saw tradeoffs going from 6-7 which carried potential negative utility. One of these which is lingering now is the duration on Piercing Root in Origins. What it doesn't mention is the hidden 50% cooldown cut which *used* to exist at 7 (I haven't tested it for Origins and don't care to), despite losing 70% of its duration. Early MB worked on the same principle: higher shield, lower duration.
And you should know full well that templars only had insane magic attack because the values got inflated so much. You know the math behind how blunt mastery worked. In 2008, those values weren't achievable enough to make them worthwhile. Tell me the name of a templar in T4 gear that's ever out-damaged an agi dhan, guardian, defender, ranger, wizard, or dekan at those same levels/gear. There wasn't one, because that's just how the game worked at that time. Templars were a mix of priest and defender, as they were to be. The 2009/2010-era of the game was horribly imbalanced, yes. But to say that 2008 wasn't balanced is just negligent of the game's history, because at release, it pretty much was very well-balanced, the only questionable builds being dex guard and agi dhan if they were very well-geared and well-built. If anything, things didn't die fast enough, because wizards with Psy shield could keep whole parties up with everyone dealing such relatively low damage.
I'm still salty that I missed the 2nd day Epic Meister's sale because of work, and my roommate (who played Rohan) forgot to log on my EM account and buy it :|
As bad as the decision to release epics/upgrades was, I'd have to agree that the post-epic pvp was the most balanced this game ever was - everyone who wasn't in a guild that contended boss fights could buy their way into contention and the playing field was way more even instantly.
Then the giant stat inflation garbage came along and ruined the game.
And maybe that's just the critical distinction: It was the most-balanced under the assumption those involved in the PvP had them.Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMyName
Which yes, if we leveled the playing field perfectly and curbed stat inflation, it naturally would be. It's that reason why temps weren't OP at launch and why the game in 2008 was in fact excellent-balanced; there were no stats to inflate blunt/str dhans with into insanity. It's why I also only chose to partake in the low-level PvP tournaments after the sale; the 6x fights were just better because things were more normalized and aligned with the core game.
The fact is that a bulk majority of the players didn't have them, and crafted accessories, powercreeped costume items, scrolls, pets, etc. giving so many extra stat points were the beginning of a lot of the problems. So while there was potential for massive upset in 2008 because of gear disparity, it was never really there as part of a paywall so much as people having the right guilds/friends/methods to acquire said gear to create the disparity, which isn't really a balance issue in it of itself, but rather how R:BF was based in its entirety. But that's an equally-early criticism of mine; the notion of weapons having aggregating socket numbers for stacking small, cheap bonuses sold at NPC's would have made gear easier to acquire, easier to max, and generally-speaking, have made the game easier to manage. If anything, this is a big failing in Origins: We're arguably going to be worse off than before, since the number of sockets doesn't seem to increase or enable stacking as I initially suspected.
P.S. Ohai stimpz
Like I said confirmation bias. You still think just because you got away with it that it was balanced. You didnt have skills, nobody had skills it was a bunch of noobs getting punished with death at the slightest mistake. The real quality pvp happens when prime targets cant be killed in a few hits, its no longer about the math the numbers dont matter if you are an unskilled ape that doesnt know how to work together.
Was it fair from an economic standpoint? no and we did complain about it for years. Having said that I was there I can tell you I had the most fun fighting over ruler/bez before +18s came out.
Hai ^^
I did say the most balanced, but it wasn't the most fun for me either - pre-epics was definitely more fun with different gear for everyone, and yeah people might have been blocked out of content (bosses) but that's the nature of an open pvp game.
lmao, nobody in 08 or 09 was doing 19k FFS. I can show you a vid on xor of a 125k hp dekan doing 12k FFS. Who in 2008 or more 2009 over here could get 125k HP?Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnyangel
2008-2009, with all of its flaws, was the most balanced period. Ever.
I think having a unique weapon like having a 50% dd mace or dank +14 buff staff or having a nice collection of weaps like phi and his 5x melee 180 vit mace and the 5x melee 25 ish magic mace was the only thing from pre epic that I missed. That and mages having relevant dps in pvp.Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMyName
@Bloodybladez: My numbers might be off but at the end of the day confirmation bias still fits. Balanced isnt because people could get away with having garbage gear with their imaginary "skillz".
The slight irony here being that vit dekan, aside from post-hero-patch pre-nerfed WFFS/DFFS, was probably at its strongest at this time given its relative health advantage via scaling gear. Even still, the build was kind of a pushover since it rarely truly one-shotted people, and so many people were running dhans with mana burn/silence/pouch to lock them out of combat and the old HP/MP switcheroo. And a lack of vit power creep kept them killable while not doing insane amounts of damage (coming close to 700 vit was insane).Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodybladez3
Int Sage hit way harder with breath and was similarly-tanky given Blue Defense absorbing a ton of damage. But still, was pretty easy to lock down and out in bigger PvP environments.
It's really just the case that everything else was way more balanced in general and the game inherently more fun because of it. I think the only class that suffered was the dex scout, and that could have easily been improved by reducing its AoE cooldowns, for they already hit pretty hard when combined together.
Ultimately, though, I apparently have no idea what I'm talking about, despite being a major build contributor across most of the classes over the years, and being one of the most senior players in this game, because I decided being a nonfactor was a better decision in life than going all-in and hating myself and the communities I was part of.
@Strellan: Your "numbers" are off because you're not looking at the actual numbers from content that was around in exclusively 2008. 2009 was bad and I don't deny that. But that's also why I explicitly, like many others, reference 2008. You're assuming things existed back then that didn't, and those were heavy contributors to making the state of the game worse.
As far as "bad gear" and "skillz" goes: I don't even know what you're arguing... Honestly, now just laying claims about people being unskilled prior to epics with no reason is more supporting of you having an inherent confirmation bias than anything.
But whatever, it's pretty much apparent at this point you're not entirely sure how things went down in 2008.
He said she said I was talking in general about lvl 99 like I said I played over 20 99 pservers as well as being around in 08. In all cases it ends the same people think its balanced but it wasnt and still isnt.
Ew a new Rohan selvel -_-
So how "gud" is it?
Or are they still scamming you people like always?
xD
Its eh not so fun right now but rohan wasnt that fun when it started anyways it will take some time to see how it develops.
How were vit dekans a pushover build? They were never meant to be a one-man-army type of char. The power of vit dekans was having like at least 2-3 running around, FFS-ing Templars at the same time when DN expired, or any other char that had priority being killed. Also, having those dekans reviving people all the time was annoying af. These two things were the strengths of dekans.Quote:
Originally Posted by soulholder
Anyways, crafting etc wasn't that bad at all, if it was capped at the 51 rings. Everything that contributed to the over-the-top damage and unfair advantadges contributed to the killing of the game. Epics, upgraded, all stats acc and what even came after all of that was just plain stupid. I had epics, upgraded, all stat boss drops etc etc but I didn't enjoy it like the time before that. Just because there were dhans running around doesn't mean that dekans were a pushover build. There were guardians and rangers, which back then, were one of the main squishy killers.
Actually I kinda like it. PW isn't raping folks as bad as they were in R:BF. It is about as P2W as most "Free" games are and better than some pservers I know of.Quote:
Originally Posted by RBNXD
If you are used to pservers, experience and rates are as low as expected. And there are some pretty marked differences:
- No portal stones - you teleport by clicking a bindstone on the map & pay for the trip (price goes up the higher level you are).
- No arrows/bolts needed for half elf
- "Pure" builds will have a tough time surviving
- The is no Gathering Hall
- There is no Exchange Market
- There is no Item Mall (during the cbt - will open later)
- There are no option stones for forging. BUT weapon/armor parts have options built into them
- There are no stat restrictions on weapons or armor
- Refine more than -5 levels you can break your stuff without a pres stone (which means -7 is the max)
- There is no stats refiner since there are no stat restrictions on gear - only level.
- Use a Chance stone to give yourself better refine, reinforce and forge rates.
- No 3rd party buffing - self and party buffs only.
- You can reinforce (+) any weapons or armor - not just ancient & enchanted. It is crone driven like refine
- For now mob respawn is 3 seconds - i find it way too fast but it is good for parties and melee classes which are close to where the loot drops.
- I haven't seen any crafting facilities so I would guess no crafting.
- No Glacials
- All armor weapons have spirit stone sockets (most of the time 3 - may be more after forging)
- Mobs can drop unique gear
- All SES I have seen as drops are 100%
- There is a piggy bank at the top of the screen that gains crones with every mob you kill. Once in a while you will get a copper key that lets you unlock it. You can't collect those keys in your treasury.
- level cap is 100, but it >100 skills like heroic are included as part of the main and job skill trees. Heroic will give you a maximum of 15% PvP defence and no attack bonuses.
That is what I can come up with off the top of my head. I am sure there is a lot more.
100% agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by KatyPerry1
OMG i have missed the original intro music like from forever xD
Yeah just logged with my fancy DE and so far it seems ok-ish
But with the experience we had with this company I have to say I am surprised o.o
- No portal stones - you teleport by clicking a bindstone on the map & pay for the trip (price goes up the higher level you are). I'm OK with this, it's a very nice change - but they definitely need to adjust the price tags at higher levels. I'm not going to pay over 40k to get there, and I'm not going to run through 6 maps to get there either. Sure, you can get rid of your money, get yourself killed on patrols yadayada - but that's just unnecessary rifraf I don't need
- No arrows/bolts needed for half elfLove this change
- "Pure" builds will have a tough time surviving Yup, this is great - can't count the amount of people complaining about weakness and still going full out on one stat other than vit..
- The is no Gathering Hall
- There is no Exchange Market I hope, for the love of RBF, that they will keep it this way. IDGAF about IM, as long as there is no EM I'm good
- There is no Item Mall (during the cbt - will open later)
- There are no option stones for forging. BUT weapon/armor parts have options built into them There is an interesting variety to be made here
- There are no stat restrictions on weapons or armor +1
- Refine more than -5 levels you can break your stuff without a pres stone (which means -7 is the max) +1, if you're not required to have gear 20 lvls above you to survive
- There is no stats refiner since there are no stat restrictions on gear - only level.
- Use a Chance stone to give yourself better refine, reinforce and forge rates. Haven't tested this yet - sounds like a nice IM touch i don't really care about, as long as it doesn't mean you cannot forge anything without them
- No 3rd party buffing - self and party buffs only. I'm a fan of anything that compliments party play
- You can reinforce (+) any weapons or armor - not just ancient & enchanted. It is crone driven like refine breaking at +1 is a tad overdone IMHO
- For now mob respawn is 3 seconds - i find it way too fast but it is good for parties and melee classes which are close to where the loot drops. too fast on general maps, I say OK for dungeon rooms and places like Roha/Spire/Giant's fingerprint/etc
- I haven't seen any crafting facilities so I would guess no crafting. +1
- No Glacials +1
- All armor weapons have spirit stone sockets (most of the time 3 - may be more after forging) +1, as long as the spirit stones won't yield crazy stat boosts and that you cannot stack them on the same item
- Mobs can drop unique gear +1 interesting change for those that cannot/feel not like forging too much
- All SES I have seen as drops are 100% I doubt they'll keep it this way (?) I don't mind 100%, to the contrary - but I think drop rate is a tad too high??
- There is a piggy bank at the top of the screen that gains crones with every mob you kill. Once in a while you will get a copper key that lets you unlock it. You can't collect those keys in your treasury. +1 I like this, many also complain about crone drop being low, but they do not count the piggy bank on top of it. I think it's a nice add-on.
- level cap is 100, but it >100 skills like heroic are included as part of the main and job skill trees. Heroic will give you a maximum of 15% PvP defence and no attack bonuses.+1, I think..
Forums didn't let me quote you so I did it like this..
I have to agree with you guys very interesting skill sets on all the classes.
Went DE/Warlock cause why not? but i think nerfing the shields to last seconds is retarded for a very weak class that has no pdf what so ever.
Magic mobs are no problem and resistance(Magic attack resistance) is great numbers go from 13+0 to 41+0 and some resisted but as i said physical and ranged mobs hit way too hard against this class and very little spots with magic mobs to kill. Most DEs will have a though time getting used to the old ways. Kiting is no problem tho xD
Am pretty sure ill stick with this and just go casual.
Still surprised on how well this server seems to be working out o.o
nah it is pretty funQuote:
Originally Posted by sunnyangel
Dont let the nostalgia fool you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubblebutt
Was speaking more generally; a group of three players playing anything burst-oriented (agi dhan and ranger were big ones due to their relative burst/combo reliability from stealth/range to dodge silence/pouch and pre-cast their escapes in the form of WF/Sprint on top of their low-stat-need for high damage from siege shot scaling and obviously stat-crits + invenom elemental damage) easily brought down non-tanks without the need for truly massive gear advantages as was the norm throughout most of 2008. Vit dekan worked as a good sponge and bruiser, but unless it was ganking or focusing random under-leveled players, it struggled to contribute much given its relatively easy shutdown potential from priest/dhan control effects. Possibly different metas, though, Ahkma was also the newest of the servers just after release, full of mostly rejects from the others and new players lol. Even then, templars didn't start taking the spotlight until a long ways after when people started scaling blunt with lots of all-stat bonuses; str defender was "the build" for a long time given the insanity of bonus attack force that Fixation provided on top of all the sweet defenses from the tree to keep them up.Quote:
Originally Posted by KatyPerry1
51's while not inherently bad were a huge step towards the stats just getting out of hand; rings alone could provide almost 40% of the total achievable stat points from 1-99 in each of three separate stats. R4 rings were 15-20 each with hearts being the big vit item. Needless to say, just the difference alone between them was about the same as investing into 4:0 or 3:1 builds, which you probably recall early on being a make-or-break split for most players.
True @ the 51's being a huge step towards the starts, but still.. it was relatively harmless when it was just focussed to your 3 main stats. The +all status on drops/rings combined with +attack gave the killing blow.
Two or three dekans did the job better than two or 3 rangers or dhans. If timed correctly a Templar or w/e didn't have time to pot if he would get FFS'd by two dekans. Neither did a priest have time to heal etc. Problem with rangers and dhans were that even Templars, while hitting 1.5k's or even less, could whack down a dhan or ranger in no time. Plus dhans and rangers were focussed by guards/defenders etc. Trust me, when we ran the server before all the epic stuff etc more trouble with their dekans than any other class. Dhans and rangers were easily killed. Vit dekans with obli, cure silence,heals, perma revs from priests and other dekans was what made the pvps last longer.
And str defenders never were a real thing tbh, too easily shut down. Melee based defenders became a thing when defenders like Hikari were full vit with epic/upgraded weapons and 4x beze/ruler. Being tanky af while doing 6-7k Fix AOE. But then again, thank YNK for that.