Information Gathering of Current Classes

[sunnyangel]

....I think this is why xGrubas posted that nice picture of Jackie Chan with a brain that was full of ****.

You say vacuum is too long. Your proposed solution is to extend reflect. Mine brains full of **** after reading that too.

How exactly does that solve the issue of vacuum being too long? All you want to do is take the only class that has any defense to vacuum at all and improve that, but screw all the other classes that are already sub par. Great plan.

Again serious pvps that you dont participate in. If you are in a ruler pvp you dont vacume no guardians defenders dhans rangers etc because you know if the boss spawns in the next 10 seconds the primary DPS is the templar. No nerf is going to change that. Also making a cure vacume skill as nice as it sounds would be takes work whereas they could probably just make ohn blessing 1 gs and 1 point and theres the cure vacume skill.

I'm hitting low 2x k KS vs mobs, and really the only thing I need to upgrade is +6 feathers to +12, +5 walters to +6, and actually bother to get a WA sword. That's self buffed w/alm, but even still, in order to get that damage up to 50k vs players, those few gear upgrades and popping a scroll would have to increase my melee by what, somewhere in the ballpark of 7x what I'm currently sitting at to hit 50k vs players? In other words, out of combo KS is not going to be hitting 50k damage.
Lucas can do 35k knight symbol no combo, ive seen a templar significantly weaker than lucas deal 155k knight symbol at the end of his combo on a 9x% dd priest (rare event DD armours fk gay romanian goat drama etc)
Pretty much what it boils down to is out of combo ks < 1 regular from a templar. Here's Leo's guardian video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N2CxsLDwlE
Sure it was pre-upgrade boss drops, but that was probably the best guardian to ever step foot in Jin at that point, and even in combo I think I saw a couple KS in the low 20k range, most of them were under that. What would a guard need probably 4x+ the melee that Leo had in this video to do more then 50k KS out of combo? Yeah...that's possible.
Leo's guard does not have reinforced drops, chimera set, medal +7 or sage armour set with 200 str/<dex/vit> stones. The pure attack difference between a guard with any reinforced boss drop 15-18 and leo's +0 rulers is huge.
But with that aside, the point of testing with mediocre gear is to show that even mediocre templars are still OP, unlike your constant claims that only the best of the best of templars can do anything. Put mediocre gear on a templar and any other class, and the templar hits harder. Put pro gear on templar and any other class and the gap shifts even more in favor of the templar. Put mediocre gear on a templar and pro gear on another class, and the templar still hits harder. Are there guardians running around now that have 3x the melee that Leo had in that video so they can hit 50k outside of combo?
There is 1 guard that is close (lucas) but he is missing a handful of things. Also nobody is disputing that templars hit less than other classes at all. But the GAP is not as big as you make it sound. My temp (who is a few steps above mediocre) cant kill a decent dekan, a guardian in the "mediocre" bracket can with ease. The difference is that templars only have their regular hits whereas guardians and defenders and rangers have DECENT skills that are important in pvp. (First one from the top of my head is blue drain, a priest with no marea battle=easy kill) I know you are going to say something about holy light and destruction however I am talking about niche skills that have a use in pvp not things that deal damage. Also if you think people should be spamming spells then I have two words for you; Wizards & Warlocks. (and where they are now) All that I am saying is do not make the gap seem like the grand canyon, my str def still kills any char from lvl 71-90 in survival arena, lucas can still kill any char even when they have reflect.


Its funny when you say this, but even templar players are getting bored. They make temps so OP you either play one or go home, so everyone either rolls a temp or quits. Your then just left with a small population of people 2-3 shotting each other on their temps, and well, we hit a point where even those guys are getting bored. Yeah me and xGrubas are idiots for suggesting blunt mastery needs beat with the nerf bat. Oh well, funny thing is if you get your way and temps stay stupidly OP games dead anyhow, so have fun cheerleading for a game that won't be around much longer if things continue like they currently are.
What I get out of this is that jin has no class diversity mkay. Ran is the opposite we have lots of classes in pvp and we have fun. I dont disagree that blunt mastery needs or does not need a nerf I just dont like people like you and xgrubas who make things sound so dramatic. The gap is not astronomically huge stop making it seem like that is the case.


Seriously? Your going to try to use this as an argument why blunt shouldn't get nerfed? There's just so much stupidity here. For starters level 1-100 for people with a clue is more then doable in a week or less...so balancing 100+ where you'll spend 99.9% of your play time based upon sub 75 makes just SOOOO much sense, doesn't it? Not to mention, soon as you hit level 50, if you have boss drops, you can probably hit harder without blunt mastery buffed then you could 4 years ago with it buffed at that level range. If you can't figure out how to level you are a failure. Plus you can roll rohanopoly rings/twins, chimera acc, and a walters at level 1.

Worst case scenario, if you are just too much of a blockhead to level, you could always be that guy that has an easy time leveling because you have scrolls and/or a pack and always get into groups, or you could multilog and hk on a savage or psy wiz or something that's ez mode for leveling/farming and just park your templar somewhere to leech xp. I've done it with groups of 6 with 5 toons leeching a psy wiz, its pretty easy to pull this one off.

Again you never read. I am trying to protect the buff from idiots like you. The int divisor only needs to be doubled to cut the melee effectively in half. Removing it means its 1:1 which is a HUGE nerf to the lower end players. I want to be fair to everybody some people will not have those things and then what do they do? twiddle their thumbs? You need to make it fair to the guy with nothing and the guy with everything. Cutting a temp's melee in half is more than enough and if we take BIG steps in the gear department it can always be fixed again its easier to do something the second time than it is the first. Like seriously if my temp hits 4k and the guardian next to me hits 2.5k and has steroid skills to go higher thats not a big gap. I dont like it when you and xgrubas talk because you are uninformed. You dont know how large or how small the gap is you just like to assume things.



In all honesty I would not have a balance discussion and include jin. They are uninformed and how do you expect to balance a game without removing OP gear from a jin player's perspective?

[Gadwin83]

Again serious pvps that you dont participate in. If you are in a ruler pvp you dont vacume no guardians defenders dhans rangers etc because you know if the boss spawns in the next 10 seconds the primary DPS is the templar. No nerf is going to change that. Also making a cure vacume skill as nice as it sounds would be takes work whereas they could probably just make ohn blessing 1 gs and 1 point and theres the cure vacume skill.

Well yeah, that's because templars are just that OP. No crap they are the primary target for a vacuum when they are doing 5x the dps other classes are doing lol.

Lucas can do 35k knight symbol no combo, ive seen a templar significantly weaker than lucas deal 155k knight symbol at the end of his combo on a 9x% dd priest (rare event DD armours fk gay romanian goat drama etc)

Lol 35k is a lot less then 50k. 35k is just a little more then what a pimped out templar on Jin hits for. Plus, I don't really care if they had 100% dd because KS bypasses it anyhow.

Not sure if it bypasses skill defense or not, but if it doesn't the most pimp of all pimped out guardians would hit a KS out of combo for less then a temp regular hits lol.

Again you never read. I am trying to protect the buff from idiots like you. The int divisor only needs to be doubled to cut the melee effectively in half. Removing it means its 1:1 which is a HUGE nerf to the lower end players. I want to be fair to everybody some people will not have those things and then what do they do? twiddle their thumbs? You need to make it fair to the guy with nothing and the guy with everything. Cutting a temp's melee in half is more than enough and if we take BIG steps in the gear department it can always be fixed again its easier to do something the second time than it is the first. Like seriously if my temp hits 4k and the guardian next to me hits 2.5k and has steroid skills to go higher thats not a big gap. I dont like it when you and xgrubas talk because you are uninformed. You dont know how large or how small the gap is you just like to assume things.

All your doing is comparing upgrade templars, which don't his as hard as craft templars, to humans dual wielding upgrades. Your comparing templars with less then optimal dps to characters with broken damage drop, because quite frankly 90%+ dd is game breaking, unless you can tell me what is a value you should hit those characters for that will be reasonable to hit(just to prove my point we'll ignore Jin) people on the lower end of the upgrade dd spectrum with low 5x dd for? What's a value you could hit that 9x dd toon for, that will actually be a balanced amount of damage, that will not be stupid when applied to a 5x dd toon? I'd really like to hear what you have to say, because quite frankly hitting for 5ks on the 9x dd toon means the 5x people are taking 25k regs, which is way too much, and if you say 5xdd toons should be taking 8ks from a temp, that means you'd be hitting those high dd toons for 1xxx?

There is 1 guard that is close (lucas) but he is missing a handful of things. Also nobody is disputing that templars hit less than other classes at all. But the GAP is not as big as you make it sound. My temp (who is a few steps above mediocre) cant kill a decent dekan, a guardian in the "mediocre" bracket can with ease. The difference is that templars only have their regular hits whereas guardians and defenders and rangers have DECENT skills that are important in pvp. (First one from the top of my head is blue drain, a priest with no marea battle=easy kill) I know you are going to say something about holy light and destruction however I am talking about niche skills that have a use in pvp not things that deal damage. Also if you think people should be spamming spells then I have two words for you; Wizards & Warlocks. (and where they are now) All that I am saying is do not make the gap seem like the grand canyon, my str def still kills any char from lvl 71-90 in survival arena, lucas can still kill any char even when they have reflect.

Again, all your doing is comparing dual upgrades with broken amounts of DD(plus an extra 20% crit compared to humans on Jin) to temps with sub par dps when there are better options in the dps department, and like I just said above, upgrade dd is simply broken.

If upgrades are so great and balanced, I'm begging you, please give me a number you think is fair for blunt mastery to hit a 9x dd toon for that's actually threatening, without being gamebreakingly stupid for the majority of players in the 5x dd range. I've asked a similar question multiple times in this thread and nobody has an answer...since you are the smartest player on the forums can you give me one?

In all honesty I would not have a balance discussion and include jin. They are uninformed and how do you expect to balance a game without removing OP gear from a jin player's perspective?

Step 1 - nerf blunt mastery so it scales like all other forms of damage
step 2 - sell costumes that favor +defense instead of +attack so costumes add survivability instead of killing power so people live a little longer

Now could you please enlighten me how you would balance the game around upgrade dd when you are talking about trying to balance a range between 5x and 9x, and you have people on the lower end of the spectrum taking 5 times the damage as people on the higher end?

[xgrubas]

The int divisor only needs to be doubled to cut the melee effectively in half. Removing it means its 1:1 which is a HUGE nerf to the lower end players. I want to be fair to everybody some people will not have those things and then what do they do? twiddle their thumbs? You need to make it fair to the guy with nothing and the guy with everything.

Firstly your pure magic attack value is calculated, so that's all the pure stuff and 1/4 the value of all the inflated stuff, that then gets multiplied by a 1000th of your int stat. Basically that's just a 1:1 conversion to melee attack if you have 1k int but if you have 2k int then you get double your total pure magic attack converted to melee. Once that's sent into the melee pile it then gets processed through melee % modifiers too

You can't even do math and u want to talk about balance. How removing int divisor is huge nerf for low templars? It's buff to every1 below 1000int. Ur doubling int divisor solution will lower every temp melee by 50%. Lets say templar have 600int, so now for him blunt multiplier is 60%(600/1000) , after ur change it would be 30%(600/2000) thats huge nerf for him. After my change blunt multiplier for 600int templar is 100%.

[sunnyangel]

Well yeah, that's because templars are just that OP. No crap they are the primary target for a vacuum when they are doing 5x the dps other classes are doing lol.
No its because all a templar has is his regular hits whereas u can vacume a guard and hell still mana drain you, use stunner rush and all the other AMAZING guardian skills.


Lol 35k is a lot less then 50k. 35k is just a little more then what a pimped out templar on Jin hits for. Plus, I don't really care if they had 100% dd because KS bypasses it anyhow.

Not sure if it bypasses skill defense or not, but if it doesn't the most pimp of all pimped out guardians would hit a KS out of combo for less then a temp regular hits lol.
Like I said lucas is the best guardian but he has a lot of work to do still.


All your doing is comparing upgrade templars, which don't his as hard as craft templars, to humans dual wielding upgrades. Your comparing templars with less then optimal dps to characters with broken damage drop, because quite frankly 90%+ dd is game breaking, unless you can tell me what is a value you should hit those characters for that will be reasonable to hit(just to prove my point we'll ignore Jin) people on the lower end of the upgrade dd spectrum with low 5x dd for? What's a value you could hit that 9x dd toon for, that will actually be a balanced amount of damage, that will not be stupid when applied to a 5x dd toon? I'd really like to hear what you have to say, because quite frankly hitting for 5ks on the 9x dd toon means the 5x people are taking 25k regs, which is way too much, and if you say 5xdd toons should be taking 8ks from a temp, that means you'd be hitting those high dd toons for 1xxx?
There are only three players with 9x dd, one is a priest with DD armours and the other 2 are vit defs which are irrelivant since you could just kill them through DN. Reasonable damage on any single upgrade char is 5k-7k, however we go much higher than that for example a temp with the buff from PA can do 25k+. Again you are on this misconception that most of the people have above 70% dd. Its not true there are only 35 or so upgs above 65% dd quit over-reacting.

Again, all your doing is comparing dual upgrades with broken amounts of DD(plus an extra 20% crit compared to humans on Jin) to temps with sub par dps when there are better options in the dps department, and like I just said above, upgrade dd is simply broken.
Comparing a guardian with mediocre gear to my templar which is above that. What does DD have to do when the man is fighting a dekan?
If upgrades are so great and balanced, I'm begging you, please give me a number you think is fair for blunt mastery to hit a 9x dd toon for that's actually threatening, without being gamebreakingly stupid for the majority of players in the 5x dd range. I've asked a similar question multiple times in this thread and nobody has an answer...since you are the smartest player on the forums can you give me one?
If you want to kill celese (the priest with 9x dd) you need to deal over 25k damage per second. Of course nobody should be able to solo her ass but temps can go positive (meaning around 70k ish melee) and still only hit less than 5k. Those DD armours are broken as **** what can you do. Lets change the example, my temp has 71% dd high end temps hit me 12k regulars, a mediocre str def fixed me around 6k and idk havnt seen a good ranger in a year. Jupa can do around 40k dmg DPP no SA.


Step 1 - nerf blunt mastery so it scales like all other forms of damage
step 2 - sell costumes that favor +defense instead of +attack so costumes add survivability instead of killing power so people live a little longer

Now could you please enlighten me how you would balance the game around upgrade dd when you are talking about trying to balance a range between 5x and 9x, and you have people on the lower end of the spectrum taking 5 times the damage as people on the higher end?

Well for starters I would sell upgrades, I made a post about it being two parts at 40 all stats/15% <attack force>/35% hp/9% dd (for the important stats) which would make the best DD 68% and the worst DD 41.

The second thing I would do is merge jin and ran because this two separate worlds concept is hindering balancing efforts. Once we are all united & on the same page it will be easier to understand the problems.

The third thing i would do is modify the int divisor to become a case statement.

Case 1: int <=1000 int divisor=1000 (int/1000)
case 2: int <=2000 AND int >1000 int divisor=2000 (int/2000)
Case 3: int >2000 AND int<=3500 int divisor=3000 (int/3000)
Else: Int divisor=4000

This means that only in case 3 & in the else (where your int could exceed 3000 would you have a multiplier over 1.)

Some example int values:
Int=785=multiplier of 0.785
Int=1355= multiplier of 0.67
Int=2876=multiplier of 0.96
Int=3877=multiplier of 0.97
Int=3501=multiplier of 0.87
Int=3499=multiplier of 1.16
Int=6000=multiplier of 1.5 (which is pretty good compared to the current divisor which would give you a multiplier of 6)
I could add another case and/or other cases could be added once the gear/lvls go up. But the average at the moment is around 3.3-4k int.

as far as other classes go......make ohn blessing 1 gs 1point, shed 10 secs off every lvl of vacume (might need to be changed idk how long lvl 1/2/3 lasts), reraise cooldown of 4 mins so you can only have 1 double life at a time. And hate to say this but either make damage skills of the dark elf race stronger or make the disables a little more potent.

[Gadwin83]

Well for starters I would sell upgrades, I made a post about it being two parts at 40 all stats/15% <attack force>/35% hp/9% dd (for the important stats) which would make the best DD 68% and the worst DD 41.

The second thing I would do is merge jin and ran because this two separate worlds concept is hindering balancing efforts. Once we are all united & on the same page it will be easier to understand the problems.

The third thing i would do is modify the int divisor to become a case statement.


This means that only in case 3 & in the else (where your int could exceed 3000 would you have a multiplier over 1.)

Some example int values:
Int=785=multiplier of 0.785
Int=1355= multiplier of 0.67
Int=2876=multiplier of 0.96
Int=3877=multiplier of 0.97
Int=3501=multiplier of 0.87
Int=3499=multiplier of 1.16
Int=6000=multiplier of 1.5 (which is pretty good compared to the current divisor which would give you a multiplier of 6)
I could add another case and/or other cases could be added once the gear/lvls go up. But the average at the moment is around 3.3-4k int.

as far as other classes go......make ohn blessing 1 gs 1point, shed 10 secs off every lvl of vacume (might need to be changed idk how long lvl 1/2/3 lasts), reraise cooldown of 4 mins so you can only have 1 double life at a time. And hate to say this but either make damage skills of the dark elf race stronger or make the disables a little more potent.

So how does that solve the issue of people on the lower end of the spectrum taking 5x the damage as people on the higher end of the spectrum with inflated upgrade dd values?

Just give me a value, with the current dd spread on Ran amongst upgrade users with 5x to 9x dd, what is a value for a templar regular fair for all ends of the spectrum?

[sunnyangel]

So how does that solve the issue of people on the lower end of the spectrum taking 5x the damage as people on the higher end of the spectrum with inflated upgrade dd values?

Just give me a value, with the current dd spread on Ran amongst upgrade users with 5x to 9x dd, what is a value for a templar regular fair for all ends of the spectrum?

Let me explain in more detail each part.

The first two parts look to eliminate this "low end" by giving people an average of 56% dd (max=68% min=41%) as well as the 300% reinforcement that ran has (which means more vit when rings are +12~18). I am not the type to slap people in the face, those who have the OP gear which should never have been introduced got it fair and square. So the only thing we can do is just tighten up the gap. Of course no other priest will ever be celese but eventually there will just be the norm and then celese. The same goes for other classes, lucas and his 72% dd sword will just be 1 lvl above the norm. (His dagger sucks anyways)

The third part works to fix the temp melee problem. Blunt mastery addresses pure and inflated attack just fine its just the final multiplier that needs to be fixed. The case statement means that only players with more than 3000 int can have multipliers over 1. (which is great considering an int value of 6000 atm gives you a 6x multiplier and in the case statement example I made it would be 1.5.) Essentially it means that temps with 3k wont hit like a bag of plushies against celese and lower levels wont hit like a bag of hammers in those lower lvl pvp scenarios (SA/LMS etc)

[treintram]

people who think they know more then Ish and Strellan belong in a mental institution.

[Gadwin83]

Let me explain in more detail each part.

The first two parts look to eliminate this "low end" by giving people an average of 56% dd (max=68% min=41%) as well as the 300% reinforcement that ran has (which means more vit when rings are +12~18). I am not the type to slap people in the face, those who have the OP gear which should never have been introduced got it fair and square. So the only thing we can do is just tighten up the gap. Of course no other priest will ever be celese but eventually there will just be the norm and then celese. The same goes for other classes, lucas and his 72% dd sword will just be 1 lvl above the norm. (His dagger sucks anyways)

The third part works to fix the temp melee problem. Blunt mastery addresses pure and inflated attack just fine its just the final multiplier that needs to be fixed. The case statement means that only players with more than 3000 int can have multipliers over 1. (which is great considering an int value of 6000 atm gives you a 6x multiplier and in the case statement example I made it would be 1.5.) Essentially it means that temps with 3k wont hit like a bag of plushies against celese and lower levels wont hit like a bag of hammers in those lower lvl pvp scenarios (SA/LMS etc)

Can you just answer my simple question please? If high dd is over 90 and average is 5x, what is a value a templar regular could hit for that is balanced across the spectrum?

[sunnyangel]

Can you just answer my simple question please? If high dd is over 90 and average is 5x, what is a value a templar regular could hit for that is balanced across the spectrum?

You are illiterate. Do you know who or how many people have even 85% dd (and up)?

[trancongthanh]

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