Human offhand boost

[Gadwin83]

There seems to be ideas all over the place on if we should keep the recent boost to 50% for human offhand daggers, so I thought I'd start a thread aimed specifically at that. I think humans could have used a little boost, so in that regard I think this change was a good idea, but there are also two issues I could see with it that I would like to suggest possible fixes too.

1. People getting too much dd. Obviously on Ran people getting 9x or even 100dd is just kinda stupid, and even on Jin people may take issue with humans getting 7x dd and an offhand dd dagger being too close in damage mitigation to what a shield can do. Those are legitimate concerns, so my suggestion here would be to just put a hard cap on dd. From the perspective of a Jin player I think 65 would be a fair amount. Comparing pre to post offhand boost this number is really only a few % higher then what you could already potentially get, and from a tank perspective leaves you in a position where if you have a 50dd mainhand, your offhand options would be adding 15dd off a dagger or 32% block rate + pdef of a shield. It still leaves the shield being the better choice for mitigating damage.

2. Crafted daggers just adding too much as far as options go. Your choice of 5 of 19dd, 17attack power, 5crit, 10hp leech, 10mana leech, 17% attack speed, 17mobi, 17attack is probably a little over board. My suggestion here would be diminishing returns on your offhand boost for each option stone past the first inserted in your offhand weapon. So for example, a dagger with one option stone might still give a 50% bonus, inserting a second would lower it to 40%, third to 30%, and fourth or fifth would bump it down to 20%.

This way, glacial off hands wouldn't become irrelevant by crafted weapons giving a ridiculous amount of offhand bonuses. It would also open up some options for people...would that extra attack speed be worth losing a little dd and crit rate kind of things. However, at the same time, this idea would also make some dual wielding hybrid/crit builds more viable on guardians and allow defenders some access to a versatile off hand with some much needed attack speed. Both crafted and forged off hands would have their uses, one being better if you want a focused build, the other if you want some versatility, but neither would make the other an obvious second rate choice.

[krogger234]

I came up with the idea of maintaining the melee(hp too?) boost at 50% to kinda bring up guardians/defender as a potential in pvp while nerfing the options (dd, attk speed, leach, crit, etc) back down to 20%

[TheHellHunter]

A hard cap on the option items is an idea I've also devised and is what I believe the best fix to this (I think I even actually posted the same 65% number somewhere :P). Option items should not be able to effectively exceed 30% of their maximum forge-able values, including epics/upgrades. While I still champion the 20% value, I don't think there's much wiggle room with getting that changed back, so introducing a hard cap is likely the next-best thing.

It'd hurt some top-tier upgrades on Ran, but the difference between 70 and 65 isn't big enough to cause too much frustration, and it prevents guards/defenders from reaching any more DD than anyone else while still maintaining some overall better stats due to their investment of two weapons per weapon paradigm.

[chronos2099]

I'm all for capping the DD or taking that back down to 20%. And this is coming from a Str defender who can use a Epic and 4 part dagger. I do however like the 50% from the rest of the stats, it actually makes it worth dual wielding for me, with the 20% before, I'd always use a shield all the time cuz dual wielding just didn't seem worth the trouble of wep switching back and forth for the 20%.

[temtin05]

No pls dont... I luv my guardian and defender <3

[PrinceOfDaSouth]

It simply must change, I was just in coli with a guildie hitting 0s on him, every att is "0" and yes 100% dd is there and its stupid, sure its pretty cool but really ridiculous.

Cant go on this way, we all knew it would happen and it did, can let it get above 75-80 ish, past that its stupid

[egyptiansk8r]

2. Crafted daggers just adding too much as far as options go. Your choice of 5 of 19dd, 17attack power, 5crit, 10hp leech, 10mana leech, 17% attack speed, 17mobi, 17attack is probably a little over board. My suggestion here would be diminishing returns on your offhand boost for each option stone past the first inserted in your offhand weapon. So for example, a dagger with one option stone might still give a 50% bonus, inserting a second would lower it to 40%, third to 30%, and fourth or fifth would bump it down to 20%.

Its not a bad idea, but remember that while these stats are nice, the base damage difference from a glacial dagger +6-9 compared to, say, a Tali's dagger is HUGE. Not to mention if you go melee, it's also an additional 15-17% melee. And technically, when you exclude the leech/atk force opts(exclude leech b/c they aren't sold and not the greatest pvp option, and atk force because when you compare it to Glacial, you automatically have the atk force on your glacial), you're basically choosing between atk speed + dd + crit % vs 1 of those 3 + extra 15-17% melee + the base wep dmg of glacial compared to tali. So the whole crafted being too strong argument... basically, the offhand buff doesn't change the overall basis of what this comes down to: glacial vs crafted in general for all weps.

[egyptiansk8r]

However, I completely and 100% agree with capping the DD. Even at 60%, it's pretty damn defensive. I'd say 65% max.

[Gadwin83]

Its not a bad idea, but remember that while these stats are nice, the base damage difference from a glacial dagger +6-9 compared to, say, a Tali's dagger is HUGE. Not to mention if you go melee, it's also an additional 15-17% melee. And technically, when you exclude the leech/atk force opts(exclude leech b/c they aren't sold and not the greatest pvp option, and atk force because when you compare it to Glacial, you automatically have the atk force on your glacial), you're basically choosing between atk speed + dd + crit % vs 1 of those 3 + extra 15-17% melee + the base wep dmg of glacial compared to tali. So the whole crafted being too strong argument... basically, the offhand buff doesn't change the overall basis of what this comes down to: glacial vs crafted in general for all weps.

I think your over estimating the difference. It'd be 53 attack between a tali+0 and glacial +0 and 16% melee. If you ever use +attack costumes, a walters, and have good accessories, that 53 attack will barely be noticeable, so basically your trying to say 16% inflated melee is > then 5% crit and 17% attack speed. That might be true if your dex sucks and you just barely do enough damage to not hit for 1xx damage on people, but the better your gear gets the more things shift in favor of the crit/attack speed being the way to go.

Also, as your + your weapons, I'm not really sure how the difference in attack would change, but the tali is going to get dex/vit far in excess of anything you can roll for secondary stats on a glacial.

edit: also don't think it'd be too terrible of an idea if crafted functioned at 50% but only gained the mods in the first 2 sockets.

[egyptiansk8r]

I think your over estimating the difference. It'd be 53 attack between a tali+0 and glacial +0 and 16% melee. If you ever use +attack costumes, a walters, and have good accessories, that 53 attack will barely be noticeable, so basically your trying to say 16% inflated melee is > then 5% crit and 17% attack speed. That might be true if your dex sucks and you just barely do enough damage to not hit for 1xx damage on people, but the better your gear gets the more things shift in favor of the crit/attack speed being the way to go.

Also, as your + your weapons, I'm not really sure how the difference in attack would change, but the tali is going to get dex/vit far in excess of anything you can roll for secondary stats on a glacial.

edit: also don't think it'd be too terrible of an idea if crafted functioned at 50% but only gained the mods in the first 2 sockets.

Well you see, this same argument can then go for ALL crafted vs glacial weapons, remember this is basically half of a weapon. There's a reason a lot of guards go Glacial sword rather than Tali's sword. And the exact same argument applies in the dagger slot, just with a 1 half ratio.