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Hello there rohan players. This is the respective thread to discuss the avenger class. (Pertaining to balance) To try and keep the non-constructive posts down please follow this outline.
Skill:
What it does at its highest lvl:
What is wrong with the skill:
Skills that need to be addressed:
Biggest thing I see is that it needs to be max geared to even tickle people, and this is costly 24/7 30% scrolls, or your weak. But if you boost it any people gonna sheet bricks. I guess I wouldn't change anything. Katar mastery is garbage, lvl 6 add less then 200 malee and points are better spent in doom trap or reflect. Or even suicide, though I personally have 0 points in suicide
Prince, are you from Ran? Because on Jin servers Str Avengers are frickin beastly. If you place them in an equal gear scenario, they bust a little combo/chain stun and can drop just about any non vit class. They even drop the vit classes after a min or so. Idk how they do on Ran with all the boosted DD/defense and the lower overall dmg output from not using glacial, but on Jin they hit like semi trucks.
Right, the discussion for balance... on Jin it's basically the same problem as temps. Actually, Str Dhans have a higher dps output than Temps do, just without heals/debuffs/reflect. They scale incredibly high with the endgame inflation, with Avengers doing a solid 50-60k dpp (even before the new buff is applied). However, I cannot account for them on Ran, but I can see how they can potentially be way too weak there.
Yes im on ran, 115 OTTO, I kill vit classes, BUT if the guys on avenger here don't spend for full pim, walters , full scrolls, they cant even kill me. nowhere near killing a vit class. I know on the no dd server they are beasts, I have no doubt nearly one shot everything, but here you gotta scratch by as an avenger or be a fail suicide dhan. My char is perma scrolled and max pim IM , but a lot of these guys cant do that,
PS I can now with storm assault hit 6x dd for 60k per hit once it builds. I guess I should have specified about being on Ran. didn't play on Jin so im not knowledgable enough to say anything, I can only guess from what I see hitting some no dd targets here.
What is your weapon? Most good dhans here use a +7-9 66-68% melee, 4x+ str, 25%+ weapon attack katars/swords. This type of weapon has a higher damage output than any upgrade/epic will ever have. Also realize everyone on Jin has much lower hp, with 60k hp being a max for most non-vit classes. 70k if you're a savage and steal some good buffs. But you see my point. Unless you're using max dmg glacials on your dhan, the dmg on avengers on Jin is much higher, and everyone's hp is much lower. Basically, if you get caught by a decent str avenger, you're pretty dead. So you can see how on Jin, dhans just have an incredibly high damage output (unless GMI is on, then it's just lulzy)
Quote:
Originally Posted by egyptiansk8r
????????????????????????????????????????????? lol'd at this bro, sure I could get a little more dmg if I wanted to be a dead dhan, and use glacials. But with my 4x 66dd katars +15 im fine, you cnt compare dhans on jin to dhans on ran with a 4x, because hitting each other they would be dead from the first pp, and barely scratch my 80k hp, its like comparing apples to peanuts. Im talking about Ran and everything is different here, Simply put if you don't spend enough on your dhan here your a non factor, glacials here are junk, 5 normal crits if your lucky to last that long
Exactly my point. The point of this isn't to compare a Jin dhan vs Ran dhan though, its to compare Ran dhans vs other Ran characters compared to Jin dhans vs other Jin characters. Dhans are certainly far from being nonfactors on Jin, they're quite scary and in most cases, are a bigger concern in group pvp's than templars and vit dekans. That's how big the difference is between Ran and Jin. I've seen avengers here DPP 70-80k+ at 110. On fully geared characters.
To be clear, the problems with Jin and Ran dhans are almost completely opposite. Ran needs dhans to actually be a little stronger meanwhile Jin needs them to be a bit weaker. Either that, or just balance their overall damage to make a smaller gap between the ungeared and fully geared.
maybe but then we would have to do that with every class, I would imagine on Jin with 30k malee, beze or ruler and basic im pim, , you don't need scrolls to do some nasty dmg, but the 70k 80k dpps your talking about are on maybe 3x dd targets, its not uncommon for me to 2 shot an epic user here, I may be going out on a limb here but I am tempted to say that with storm assault, if a player cant afford to full gear and im/pim his dhan, then agi would be the right choiceQuote:
Originally Posted by egyptiansk8r
also I would like to note that dd is exponential, it isn't a set number yesterday I was building up to 12k dpps on a 97% dd defender, how is that even possible?
as I said before im strictly talking ran, jin I don't play, but like you pointed out the dmg dhans put out there is ridiculous, here we have to work hard to be good, and when you ask about ran dhans today, well there is me and then the rest...and that is partly because most of them quit, gave up, stopped lvling because of what I just said, if your not perma scrolled and buffed on ran, your a non factor, silence pet, or suicide fail dhan
I do find it pretty interesting that the servers have opposite problems with dhans, kinda funny, too op on jin, On Ran you gotta spend to matter or lvl 6 suicide which is gay
i tickle otto all the time when hes on HK xD
Hmmm... in this case, I think the solution to Avenger balance can't be proposed by looking at Avenger skills directly, but by fixing other things on other characters. I think the biggest problem in Ran is there's just too much DD and HP for avengers to truly be useful. In Jin, just about every temp has 38 DD (all the good temps use crafted clubs) and most vit dekans have 40-45 DD. Iirc, Most people on Ran run 65+ DD, 80+ if you're a human. Also on Jin, many dps classes (like Rangers, Avengers, Preds, etc) run Weapon Attack instead of DD, also reducing the overall defense that an Avenger has to break through. So I think that's where the main problem lies, not in the Avenger tree/damage output itself, but in the defensive thresholds of Ran and Jin, and a balance/solution would probably have to come addressing that imbalance before we can proceed to propose any changes to Avengers. For example, if we pushed Jin closer to the defense threshold of Ran, then yes they would need a nerf. However, if we capped DD at say, 60% and got rid of teardrops, then avengers stand pretty well.
Lat loves it when I call them fail dhans haha, I wish 60% dd was the most I faced, add the to the pdef you get from 250k hp, and you better hit like a truck to cut it down.
Just out of curiousity what are you using for gear and on what builds to get hit for that much? I've been on a full str human, max heroic, usually about 20dd with my leech weapons on and a monkey so I have no crit reduction. I only recall one time a non-scrolled/full buffed dhan came up and dpp'd me and it was 9k/9k, not really that overwhelming. Not sure if he just sucked balls or scrolls just make that much of a difference. When I was using +5 glacials with like 9x/low 100 pdef I saw a lot of 30k/30ks from buffed/scrolled dhans. I've since upgraded and most my armor is +7/+8 17x pdef and see a lot of 20k/20k from dhans. Most I've ever seen was a 40k/40k after the last patch, so I just assumed that was with the charge skill. Wasn't really watching just saw it in my combat log when I was hk'ing. That same dhan also hit me later on that night when I was paying attention and saw he had no charge going for sure and it was 20k/20k.Quote:
Originally Posted by egyptiansk8r
Yeah they're tough but I kinda figured if I popped a lion instead of a monkey and had full dd gear on, or pp/dpp can be blocked with a shield, that at least I could get that down to a survivable amount. I'm just kinda curious if the armor upgrades were worth it in respect to fighting dhans, or if I only have the moderately pro dhans that like to kill me and not the pro pro dhans lol.
In terms of OP classes I really didn't mind dhans on Jin nearly as much as temps or vit dekans. While they can do some nasty burst damage, there are a lot more skills in game capable of effectively countering a dhan then their are a vit dekan or templar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadwin83
your rocking 20dd buddy, means for me dpending on your pdef you get hit @50-60k and easy 10k+inv normal, on Jin they should hit a bit harder since they use glacials and are the epidemy of a glass cannon. I think you should meet skeet on Jin lol
Im guessing at the numbers cause im not sure what it feels like to hit 20dd, probably never hit someone with that little
No idea why I don't see those huge numbers. Maybe dhans all have an agreement to put on ****ty katars before face raping me just to give me false hope I won't always be a one shot.
27 DD on a buffed up Wizard with ~5-6k pdef and TheDude busted me for 60k DPP. I think Skeet rocked me around 70k. I remember a long time ago when I wasn't even close to properly geared, I had Skeet hit me for 150k DPP. But that doesn't count :P lol. Anyways, remember whenever you get pk'd they most likely don't have empower. And YES, scrolls do account for a HUGE additional damage boost, so its possible there was a difference in scrolls or buffs between your comparisons. Plus Storm Assault can get ridiculous now, before you brought it up, we haven't even brought it in to this as a factor. IF (and it's a big if) a good str avenger is allowed to pound on a party for long enough without GMI up, their storm assault is gonna build up to a RIDICULOUS amount, enough to get pretty good DPP's at that point and possibly even 1 shot a vit dekan.
I think there's just too many hypothetical situations with Avengers where it'll just have to wait until some other things get adjusted in the game (like what ends up happening with overall DD for everyone) and then going from there. Until we have a solid DD rate to go off of, there's no balance suggestions that will fix both servers.
For example, if everyone got pushed towards 6x DD, then we can see what average str dhans hit for, and what pro str dhans hit for, and come up with a reasonable suggested damage output and see what can be tweaked/balanced from there.
am hoping that happens, 6x dd is normal for me to face actually it will lower what im used to probablyQuote:
Originally Posted by egyptiansk8r
Idk if you've seen it Prince, but there was a suggestion post that resulted in proposing basically a new weapon option for both servers. It's basically the damage of a max str + max melee glacial katar (twisting it into a hypothetical situation for this specific thread) with about a 35-58 DD range, and another weapon stone roll (like weapon attack for more damage) and automatic +100% HP, +50 stat, and +10% Crit. Assuming everyone was rocking that kinda weapon, it's basically 2 glacials fused together with +100% hp (does not stack with any hp% already on weapon) and some extra DD and crit rate and all stat. Where would you see avengers going then? I actually see them being almost the same as they are now.
Yea I saw the post, problem is its only a suggestion, will likely never happen. I would like to see it, but I would more like to decrease the human offhand buff, or just negate the extra dd they get period, you don't need to cap it if offhand dd is completely negated, they already get huge dmg from 2 weapons. Lol let me run 2 daggers see what happens
xD yeah thats true too. Even so, with a cap of 6x DD, people in Jin still have half the hp of Ran, which is also probably another problem. I mean, most people in Ran can tank through a 50k DPP and 25k PP with teardrops and pots, meanwhile on Jin they just get 1 or 2 shotted, QQ.
Yea here we only 1 shot nubs, while vit dks are hitting 90k in some cases......I mean I like a challenge of killing vit chars but how do you call that anywhere near balance when I got full scrolled, with mareas im getting 80k tops hp (no vit twins on) and should I slip and not pouch them after silence is off I take a 91k dffs......wtf is that?
The funny thing is that dekans are needed in this situation. What can you do against 100% dd guardian? ive had one chase me 3 times today all I can do is debuff root and GH.Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceOfDaSouth
nothing, pouch and run away
mx , but then they tear, or it doesn't matter anyway cause poison will never kill them fast enough
Yeah game is ****ed up. 100% dd things and dekans still 1 hitting me.